[Resolved] Plantation HP

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SarKonTaLk
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[Resolved] Plantation HP

Postby SarKonTaLk » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:15 am

I would like to address the issue of the fully upgraded Plantation building (or even farm). It can be used as a wall. which makes it impossible for werewolf to enter the base as long as it is being repaired by the villager and/or his children. It has 2280 health, which is almost double the amount of any wall. The plantation can be build on a strategic place so that there can be a small entrance (open pass), which can only be used for smaller units to pass (not for the bigger werewolf unit). Note that it is free to build and also you never lose its upgrades (from tent to plantation) when you rebuild it. A player can easily use windmill/grain silo to gather lumber with his lumberjacks inside his base while his plantation stands as a wall. Of course, wolf can use minions to enter... but a dog placed just on the entry spot during night can keep minions from entering at early game. Note that in order for the wolf to break the building it will basically take him half of the night attacking at even higher levels. Combine that with towers/archers/repairing or/and fishing net ability (which can be obtained before night 2) and wolf can never break the building to enter the base without help of his human army, which means revealing his identity (not to mention he can only do that at end game). Of course you can cut trees but, there are spots on the map (waterfall, graveyard, big windmill bottom-middle, top-left corner base /not cave/) which are immune to this type of strategy, making the game impossible for werewolf to actually do anything against turtling/camping players. Also if the wolf cuts trees and enters the base, the villager can regrow them and exit through the small pass next to the plantation... leaving the wolf completely trapped inside. Note that I have once managed to block a 11 level wolf inside a base by building the upgrade plantation behind him (when he was already inside the base) he was unable to get out so he lost the game (turning human and being killed).

Possible fixes: Don't allow lumberjacks to gather lumber at windmill/grain silo, forcing player to place the plantation/farm/tent inside the base. Reduce health/armor of the plantation by detaching it from the building upgrades a player can research. Make it unrepairable (player can demolish and rebuild it for free if it loses hp). Allow werewolf to pass through narrow passes (you can try to incorporate that into the Prawl ability (by using transform as base ability to make wolf get smaller and invisible), it will also fix the issue with the forest hiding spots, which fishermen use to avoid wolf.

NOTE: I have seen players abuse this with the blacksmith and War Tower buildings as well, especially for early game.
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Pwnage
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Re: Plantation HP - exploit

Postby Pwnage » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:11 am

SarKonTaLk, thank you for the very detailed report and concern. I will preface the rest of this post by saying buildings SHOULD be used as strategic walls, there's nothing wrong with getting more bang for your buck for those suckers. Keep in mind that strategically, it makes a great deal of sense to use something for two purposes rather than one; Jesse_James once commented on how he uses blacksmiths for walls, and I too find them very useful defensive structures. However, I was conducting some damage and pathing experiments and also came to a conclusion that the Plantation is far too excellently used as a defensive structure, and I'm honestly quite surprised so few people take advantage.

Here are some stats to carry us forward on this discussion, just so there's no speculation or hearsay:
Image

As you can see, the plantation is quite easily the strongest fully upgraded defensive structure, but also the most expensive because of the upgrades to get it there. However:
SarKonTaLk wrote:Note that it is free to build and also you never lose its upgrades (from tent to plantation) when you rebuild it.

You hit the nail on the head! THIS is why the plantation is too powerful. Despite having an expensive investment (and keep in mind, I didn't add the techtree requirement for each building, just its personal upgrade/building costs), it becomes permanently replaceable, always at no cost. Clearly, this isn't fair, and it is a consequence of buildings being notoriously neglected throughout our updates. So, I do agree with you, there is a massive problem with the plantation, but:
SarKonTaLk wrote:Don't allow lumberjacks to gather lumber at windmill/grain silo, forcing player to place the plantation/farm/tent inside the base. Reduce health/armor of the plantation by detaching it from the building upgrades a player can research. Make it unrepairable (player can demolish and rebuild it for free if it loses hp). Allow werewolf to pass through narrow passes (you can try to incorporate that into the Prawl ability (by using transform as base ability to make wolf get smaller and invisible), it will also fix the issue with the forest hiding spots, which fishermen use to avoid wolf.
I believe this to be an inefficient solution. Instead, here's what I'll do:
  • Reduce Farm's base health, and increase Iron Fence's base health so that they are the same
  • Reduce Plantation's base health, and increase Stone Wall's base health so that Stone Wall is superior
  • Reduce Farm's upgraded health, and increase Iron Fence's upgraded health so that Iron Fence is superior
  • Reduce Plantation's upgraded health, and increase Stone Wall's upgraded health so that stone all is superior
  • Reduce Blacksmith's base health to be equal to base Stone Wall's new health
  • Reduce Blacksmith's upgraded health to be inferior to Stone Wall, but superior to Plantation
  • Reduce War Tower's health, and armor (base and upgraded) to be slightly inferior to Stone Wall

These changes will reduce the effectiveness of the free Plantation defense, but will allow players to still strategically place useful buildings as defensive structures, with the downside to them being inferior to a fully upgraded Stone Wall.

I strongly welcome and invite more discussion on this topic, as it is closely tied to many combat updates made in 1.26, and its subsequent modifications to be unveiled in 1.27.
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SarKonTaLk
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Re: Plantation HP - exploit

Postby SarKonTaLk » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:00 pm

Well I usually have fully upgraded plantation before night 3. Here is what is op about that building. When the wolf destroys it and enters the base you can go behind him catch him in fishing net (or simply distract him inside the base with workers,dog etc) and rebuild your plantation behind him... leaving him trapped inside your base. I don't think those building should be used like that. Plantation needs to lose its upgrades (become tent again) as before or you can simply make it take 4x the time to rebuild. Also you should really consider reducing its size from 3x3 to 2x2 at least.
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Jesse James
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Re: Plantation HP - exploit

Postby Jesse James » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:15 pm

The plantation losing its upgrades upon death would create a lot of errors with other systems and dependencies.

Other options to consider are definitely increasing the rebuild time or increasing the repair time so that it cannot be repaired as fast as damage can be dealt.
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Pwnage
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Re: Plantation HP - exploit

Postby Pwnage » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:51 pm

SarKonTaLk wrote:Here is what is op about that building. When the wolf destroys it and enters the base you can go behind him catch him in fishing net (or simply distract him inside the base with workers,dog etc) and rebuild your plantation behind him... leaving him trapped inside your base.

I can't believe this scenario happens very frequently, if at all. Fish Net (the item) will no longer stun enemies, and it definitely shouldn't last long enough for a player to rebuild a plantation. This is fairly clever strategy, trapping the wolf in, and I've seen people do it quite well by leaving their stone gates open and trapping the wolf inside that way. Having 2 layers of stone walls to escape through at the wrong time can be devastating, but this is the fault of the Werewolf player, not the buildings or the systems. Personally, when I'm the Werewolf player, the first thing I do is build an army. Attacking as just the Werewolf + ghouls is almost always inefficient, so having your own units is open a mandatory requirement to siege bases down later in the game. If more people played with even that simple of a strategy, villagers would be significantly more susceptible to damage, and abuse of the Plantation would dwindle considerably.

Again, though, rest assured knowing that these acts will not be possible. Increased repair time and build time for Farm/Plantation will most likely be accompanying the changes listed above.


Edit (7/23/16): Many things were changed; topic is temporarily locked. Look for the 1.27 changelog upon release for more detail on changes.
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