My proposal for game's improvment

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Astrozavr
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:51 am

My proposal for game's improvment

Postby Astrozavr » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:20 am

Hi everybody!
Here i would like to express my humble opinion regarding some actual aspects of gameplay in its current state.
I will try not to repeat the often-discussed disbalances but forgive me if i cover them nevertheless.
It's not a secret for anybody that players in this map are divided into two groups: one of them perceives WWT as another ordinary map which they connect to simply play without thinking and even understanding what they sould do. Their group is more nymerous and disbalances don't touch them at all. But other players who love this map and play to WIN, turn out in very squeezed tactical methods when they play against other skillfull ones who also want to win and not only fun.
From this point of view a dynamics of gameplay greatly suffers from the presence of one powerful skills/items/tactics which automatically devaluates others and reduces the number of effective choices. If we imagine a random game with several skillfull players setting a principal goal to win, we can easily ensure in the inviability of many game's tactics which nevertheless remain as potential ones but on the pratice they are dead.
I'm sure noone will go hunting to get Spear Shot ability, noone will go brewing to get Toxic Bomb only by the one reason: cheap Immunity for Special Abilities - it costs only 45 iron ore and can be easily and very fast crafted at first daytime. This small cheap item makes those abilities useless (and Fish Net so) and kill appropriate strategies.
Also everyone is kept in tension by the power of Acorn Bomb and constant fear to be killed in a few seconds by Acorn or by Toxic Bomb+daggers at the start of the game forces most players to make FAST Immunity for Special Abilities almost always.
I don't object to invulnerability to magic at all but this shield should be fixed as soon as poosible. The easiest way to do it without much efforts is to raise its cost on 100+ ore and at the same time reduce the price of Clockwork Villager till 45 ore. Because NOONE never buys this too expensive illusion - its efficiency doesn't approves its price. I think one this small change can help to kill two birds with one stone and make the game more dinamical and diversified.
As regards the unfair power of Acorn Bomb i think the best way to delete it from the map. As other players have already noticed here that the game has Molotov cocktail and it's not so easy to craft: you need run for merchants and buy alcohol, grow cadalists, build structes for it - by one word you spend efforts to get a good item and even after all it will have cooldown and no stun. Damage result is the same but it's not imbalanced, the victim can run away. The raising of price for acrone can look comically - if price will be 1000 gold I will still have opportunity to fast farm through fishing and with couple of them kill anyone who has no Imunnity Shield, and this points returns us to the beginning again. The old deadlock in a new way. If price will too high so again what the meaning of this item? Nobody buys - it's dead ballast.
There are other problems which lead the game to a deadlock. Except an opportunity to lock yourself in the plantaion house under the guard of an army and just wait when werewolf will leave the game, the map has one territory (to the North-West near the middle where a big waterfall is) which principally cant be broken (even if villager is out of his main house and doesn't suspect anything) - werewolf can't enter there by other sides except the only gangway (elevation). In other cases a werewolf could have cut down a pass for himsef using Whims of the Druid (as on any other place of the map) but in that case above he can't enter if obviously an enemy villager has strong army and fortifications. No a "back door". The only way to win there is preventing i.d. early kill that villager when he hasn't got an army but it restricts my freedom to choose a strategy because if we talk about a full pack of players who really want to win. the odds one of them will go there are quite high.
I don't know what you should do to make an army's power balanced - from my point of view whatever you'd do - leads to a new disbalance: you upgrade villager's military - werewolf can't win, you downgrade them - werewolf can enter, they can't protect you, werewolf kills all units - and... no meaning in army's existance at all. No exit.
So may be it would be better to remove military units completely? I think this map was not supposed to be like original warcraft 3 maps with four races, a lot of units , structures and epic battles... Imho concept of the map would look greater if its developers improve its RPG aspects, not RTS.
Of course as an option you could add some new ablility which allows to pull big masses of enemy's units together and a player could explode them with dynamites, previously stunned them by "Hair ball" - and.. who knows? may be this item will get a new life too.
An unpleasant discovery for me was a feature that a villager can't use "hit-and-run" strategy for example with daggers and toxic bomb - they both are ranged abilities but when i was running away from an agressive villager with haste I couldn't harassed him on the turn without a hurt for my own character - it means my character ignored
a potential range and throw daggers and bomb fixedly - so i got kicks from an enemy. I think it's not normal that ranged abilities are casted in close range when you are running. One more game's honest trick is dead.
Also I faced such a discouraging bug (or what it was and why i don't know): in one game my whim of the druid cut down trees but... i couldn't go through the passage altough there was enough free space to go. In a next game I rechecked this feature in the same places but on that time everything was ok. How can i be sure that in another game this bug won't appear again?
I'm sorry for such a big post but in the end I want to find out some questions regarding the rules of "experience points" and hope for answers. So the first if I understood it right becoming a zombie in any game means defeating? Well then for what reason they are required? If you can't already win the game anyway, then the only thing which you can do is to break allies bases for fun and ruin the game - I rely on my games' experience in which zombies behave in such way. No always but often. As for me it doesn't make a honor for the map as a whole. Why a player can't just loose with dignity and be kicked automatically from the lost game (as it always happens with wolf) - instead of it they will use that an inexplicable opportunity to ruin a game.
The second question appeared when after I killed a werewolf players in our game voted to pick a new wolf at the closest night. I killed that wolf too but of course he was stronger at night because he had time to up his level as villager before. So as a result I killed 2 werewolves in the same game ... and no extra points? 1 game+1win=2 points. But wtf ??? Explain me please then what's the meaning for repick werewolf in the same game ??? We could have started another game with the same pack and had EQUAL chances but... when 1.5 days left behind any new werewolf will be much more stronger ! it's so obvious and for killing him I will NOT get anything but at the samr time a werewolf player can get his victory's points (if he wins). May I be wrong and misunderstood something in the rules ?? Or not and it's another free "present" for players? In this case a player who finised a second werewolf sould get double points or extra points.
And the last. Do you really consider it's fair that a player who runs over map the whole game, inventing strategy and finally make a "last-hit" to a werewolf deserves the same amount of points for victory as a player who stood afk and was lucky not to be caught by a wolf ???
I think this is cool map and I like its atmosphere and concept but all these disbalnces and "features" continue to live from a one version to another one . Can we (players) hope that one day this wonderful map will come to more balanced and experienced state?
So thanks for a possibility to express what another player thinks about this map. Hope developers won't cancel it.
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Pwnage
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: My proposal for game's improvment

Postby Pwnage » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:13 am

Astrozavr, thank you for your comments. I will do my best to respond to the bulk of them. Some of your questions I had to guess at through context due to my inability to translate some passages in haste, so if I miss a specific point you wish do discuss, please do reply and I will do my best to respond to your desired concern.

Astrozavr wrote:I'm sure noone will go hunting to get Spear Shot ability, noone will go brewing to get Toxic Bomb only by the one reason: cheap Immunity for Special Abilities - it costs only 45 iron ore and can be easily and very fast crafted at first daytime. This small cheap item makes those abilities useless (and Fish Net so) and kill appropriate strategies.
…I don't object to invulnerability to magic at all but this shield should be fixed as soon as poosible. The easiest way to do it without much efforts is to raise its cost on 100+ ore and at the same time reduce the price of Clockwork Villager till 45 ore. Because NOONE never buys this too expensive illusion - its efficiency doesn't approves its price. I think one this small change can help to kill two birds with one stone and make the game more dinamical and diversified.

Abilities:

Spear Shot: It is apparent that the 200 spear requirement is too high for the current status of the game. This can be reduced.
Toxic Bomb: Very effective ability and very easily obtained. If you have 6 wells/cauldrons, you can effectively (though with a loss in profit) gain Toxic Bomb in few moves by growing Elderflowers + Blood Roses and brewing them. Obviously coffee can expedite this process, but takes quite a while to grow so it’s not particularly efficient to plant if you just want the ability.
Fish Net: Absolutely busted. Net duration is being decreased to 4 seconds, cool down is being increased to 60 seconds. Also, Fish Net will not work properly and similarly to its cognate item, as in it will trap the victim but will not stun them, so they are still free to use potions, abilities and attack.


Mining:

It’s been understood by the highly skilled players and myself that magic immunity is far too easily acquired, and far too powerful, requiring a rework. I can get 45 ore before first night with small amounts of luck, and reliably have it at least halfway into the 1st night at worst. This must indeed change. My current proposal is to remove magic immunity entirely.
Clockwork villager is very irregularly discussed, and you’re right, it’s not very commonly purchased (though I did some aesthetic work on it last patch). Perhaps we could introduce some more useful features, such as a backpack? This has been discussed in the past. Currently, the clockwork villager IS the most powerful unit you can purchase at high levels by DPS, but is not readily obtainable. Other than that and lumber harvesting, you’re right, a bit of a useless buy.

Astrozavr wrote:Also everyone is kept in tension by the power of Acorn Bomb and constant fear to be killed in a few seconds by Acorn or by Toxic Bomb+daggers at the start of the game forces most players to make FAST Immunity for Special Abilities almost always… As regards the unfair power of Acorn Bomb i think the best way to delete it from the map.

Acorn bomb is not available in the early game indirectly by putting an initial stock delay on the crafting knife. This was intended to be a temporary solution until we had a solution for acorn bomb. It’s also not supposed to have 0 cooldown, and its place is a bit questionable considering it does what two other abilities which require time to acquire (net, spear) for a small nominal fee. I’m pretty happy to remove it, personally, since it’s usually used for PvP rather than PvE or PvW[olf]. At a minimum, daggers, bombs, and molotovs should be on the same cooldown timer which will be at least longer than the duration of the stun.
Astrozavr wrote:[waterfall base is too strong]

Perhaps in this patch. The waterfall base is a double edged sword, and it’s quite easy to trap player in it early on in the game if you’re competent with micromanaging your units (which few are). In the later game, it’s nearly impossible to capture a player in the waterfall because of fishnet, but that’s it. Resolving the issues with fish net will drastically change every other aspect of the game.
Astrozavr wrote:So may be it would be better to remove military units completely? I think this map was not supposed to be like original warcraft 3 maps with four races, a lot of units , structures and epic battles... Imho concept of the map would look greater if its developers improve its RPG aspects, not RTS.

Very interesting idea, one which has been discussed rather infrequently but has great weight. In private discussions with Jesse & Tonex, this idea has come up on forgoing the RTS model we’ve maintained while working on the WC3 engine, and moving more towards an RPG. Personally, I’m in love with WWT because of the high pace and micromanaging required in the RTS aspects of the game, but I’m also in love with the rich diversity the game has to offer in terms of professions. I’d be happy to discuss a more RPG-inclined model, but this is a dramatic change which will most likely not be implemented in the life of WWT on WC3 (not to say it may not be implemented in a different platform if it ever happens).
Astrozavr wrote:Also I faced such a discouraging bug (or what it was and why i don't know): in one game my whim of the druid cut down trees but... i couldn't go through the passage altough there was enough free space to go. In a next game I rechecked this feature in the same places but on that time everything was ok. How can i be sure that in another game this bug won't appear again?

This is a known but, I have already resolved it for whenever the next version is released (for which we have no idea). viewtopic.php?f=6&t=857 has more information.
Astrozavr wrote:I'm sorry for such a big post but in the end I want to find out some questions regarding the rules of "experience points" and hope for answers. So the first if I understood it right becoming a zombie in any game means defeating? Well then for what reason they are required? If you can't already win the game anyway, then the only thing which you can do is to break allies bases for fun and ruin the game - I rely on my games' experience in which zombies behave in such way. No always but often. As for me it doesn't make a honor for the map as a whole. Why a player can't just loose with dignity and be kicked automatically from the lost game (as it always happens with wolf) - instead of it they will use that an inexplicable opportunity to ruin a game.

I’ve discussed some of these ideas and other players have contributed here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=877 . Keep in mind that Falanor introduced the experience/ranking system independently, and we did not account for it in 1.27.01. Subsequent versions will be released with ranks in mind.
Astrozavr wrote:The second question appeared when after I killed a werewolf players in our game voted to pick a new wolf at the closest night. I killed that wolf too but of course he was stronger at night because he had time to up his level as villager before. So as a result I killed 2 werewolves in the same game ... and no extra points? 1 game+1win=2 points. But wtf ??? Explain me please then what's the meaning for repick werewolf in the same game ??? We could have started another game with the same pack and had EQUAL chances but... when 1.5 days left behind any new werewolf will be much more stronger ! it's so obvious and for killing him I will NOT get anything but at the samr time a werewolf player can get his victory's points (if he wins). May I be wrong and misunderstood something in the rules ?? Or not and it's another free "present" for players? In this case a player who finised a second werewolf sould get double points or extra points.

For the bulk of this concern, refer to the above post. The repack is intended to be a buffer for bad players, simple as that. We currently do not have a ranking system which is based off who slays the werewolf, just survives, and again, this will likely be modified in future releases.
Astrozavr wrote:And the last. Do you really consider it's fair that a player who runs over map the whole game, inventing strategy and finally make a "last-hit" to a werewolf deserves the same amount of points for victory as a player who stood afk and was lucky not to be caught by a wolf ???

No.
Pwnage.@USEast
Stormblessed
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:29 pm

Re: My proposal for game's improvment

Postby Stormblessed » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:30 am

"And the last. Do you really consider it's fair that a player who runs over map the whole game, inventing strategy and finally make a "last-hit" to a werewolf deserves the same amount of points for victory as a player who stood afk and was lucky not to be caught by a wolf ???"

LIFE ISN'T FAIR ASTRONUB LOL

About Zombies - they are pain, and 2 zombies can bang Werewolf without him even being able to move due to cursed corpses ability(perma stun lol)

I wish there was something to allow people watch the game live(that's what comes to my mind when I think about what for zombies were invented here), I don't play wc3 a lot but, apparently ghosting pains people greatly here tho it happens in any other game too. meh.

Ik you guys don't know completely when you wish for next version to air but..people might begin to quit(pls don't kil the game T_T, don't let it be 2k18 next patch LOL)
Astrozavr
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:51 am

Re: My proposal for game's improvment

Postby Astrozavr » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:44 pm

Thank you, Pwnage, for reply. This sounds good for me what you've posted. I didn't even expected that someone would be intereted in that post, and I hope players will see a removal of the most evident disbalances of the game in a next version.
*****
P.S. message>>>to Stormblessed: I know you are a vain and nasty person but it is your psychological problems, and first of all it is worse for you if you dont't realize it by yourself. I don't bother about your opinion regarding the game or life or whatever else. I can only pity you don't have enough attention or concernment in your real life so that may incite you to splash agression out on a random person like me here - as a compensation of your real futility.
As for a "noob" definition - your game stats are probably the worst among hign rank players - it is enigma for me how do u have insolence to teach anyone anything here. Neither brains nor modesty.
Stormblessed
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:29 pm

Re: My proposal for game's improvment

Postby Stormblessed » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:18 pm

Wow, you talk about attention, concernment, vanity but you take simple notices so personally like calling someone "noob" that you go this far to spend 2 hours on writing this simple reply:D (everyone who played with you knows that you are linguistically disabled and writing this message had to take you veeeeeeeeery long :DDDDDD - so the first post as well I admit I was amazed you actually wrote such a humongous thread haha - wp)

Grow up boy, you must had been bullied in the primary school that you don't comprehend how it works kek you sound like someone who got some real beatin and now talk with such despise ^.^

It reminds me of my friend in the high school, she was also very sensitive whenever someone said something possibly "offensive" - in jokes to be said, I also know she had tough time in middleschool where people are still immature and provoke eachother a lot =)) Sense connection? People after such "hardships" usually overreact later in the adult live because they couldnt deal with it when they were young. I guess "dealing with" is also quite transparent :DD

We don't know eachother yet you classify people so ugly just like that because they called you using Internet slang dayuuuum =)))

HEY PWNAGE YOU NOOB =)))))(sorry but I don't know who else visits forum cept for Natural I guess.. ?:D)

One old writer once said before he died, that before he entered Internet he had no idea there were so many imbeciles in the world lol

Storm with you, may it bless you with wisdom eventually however not necessarily =)))

PS: I play for fun, not for the rank. I know what the game is about and I am teaching new players while they enter the WWT how to play the game WHILE YOU ARE TEAM KILLING everyone you scum REPELING NEW PLAYERS FROM JOINING COMMUNITY so I believe it's not your line to say about "teaching" haha!! =)) [Obviously you are teamkilling only newbs, cause good players never fall to your otp tricks, how noble of you .friend. =DDD]