To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Post and discuss your suggestions for future Werewolf versions here.
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SarKonTaLk
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To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby SarKonTaLk » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:06 pm

You can clearly see that in most games some people really hate being werewolf and they are not good at all. They either leave or suicide or just make the game really boring. Why not create a voting system at game start to let people choose if they want to be werewolf or not. The vote should be completely anonymous. Then at start of the night all people who voted yes will be put in a pool from which the werewolf will be chosen. If nobody wants to be werewolf then all people will be put in the pool.
Last edited by SarKonTaLk on Sun May 28, 2017 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jesse James
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby Jesse James » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:33 pm

We've discussed this exact thing in the past. I think it just slipped between the cracks and never got implemented.
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SarKonTaLk
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby SarKonTaLk » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:44 pm

It will be a nice way to allow players to play the map in the role they want. For example, I wanted to be werewolf, but I rarely got chosen to be. When I finally was... It happened 4 times in a row,however, after the second time I wanted to be villager. Also spending time and resources to kill noob wolfs before night 3 and bury their corpses and then becoming the new wolf is a bit unfair. I think this needs to be considered for 1.27. That way we can avoid leavers and and make the games a bit more interesting for everyone.
Last edited by SarKonTaLk on Sun May 28, 2017 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby Tonex » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:50 am

Jesse, wasn't it because you didn't want to use dialogue boxes?
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Jesse James
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby Jesse James » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:39 pm

Dialogue boxes are indeed very ugly to work with. Although, we could use the ERaR card system for voting in the first few seconds of the game. The one you would use in ERaR to select your class, weapon, background etc.
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SarKonTaLk
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby SarKonTaLk » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:38 am

Don't forget that the voting option for new werewolf also needs to be reworked. I am talking about the Yes/No popup that allows players to choose whether or not they want new werewolf to be selected for the next night after that first one dies before night 3. A nicely compact way of doing this might be to include 3 buttons:

*Yes, I want to be
*Yes, but not me please
*No, lets end the game

Also the original(at map start-up) voting box that will be displayed for players to choose if they want to be werewolf or not should also pop up if a werewolf leaves the game.
Last edited by SarKonTaLk on Sun May 28, 2017 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jesse James
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby Jesse James » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:36 pm

Great thoughts. Keep them coming. The more we hash out all the possibilities now the easier it is to implement without issue. I'm not keen to make any decisions until pwnage weighs in on the topic because he is working hard on 1.27 but I think this is something we should try to address.

Topics to Discuss:

Default Option
When people are given a decision the default option is usually chosen. (You can see this in organ donation in the US versus France. In the US no organ donation is default and 80% of people are not organ donors. In France the default is being an organ donor and you have to opt out of it. Which results in a 90% organ donation rate in France). With this psychological phenomena in mind should we make the default option No to Werewolf so that new players will default and not get the werewolf and potentially ruin the game with inexperience? If there is an experienced player who wants to wolf, he will get it and make for a decent game. If everyone is inexperienced and defaults to no wolf they will all be added to the pool and someone will randomly be selected from all of the inexperienced players and it will be fair.

New Perspective
Choosing "No Wolf" and getting wolf will create a new feeling of being cheated in games where everyone opts not to be wolf. Can we mitigate this feeling somehow and do we think this change of expectations will be a big deal with players?
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SarKonTaLk
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby SarKonTaLk » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:35 pm

Jesse James wrote:New Perspective
Choosing "No Wolf" and getting wolf will create a new feeling of being cheated in games where everyone opts not to be wolf. Can we mitigate this feeling somehow and do we think this change of expectations will be a big deal with players?


In case nobody wants to be werewolf, there can be a message that informs the players about that. For example:

"Nobody wants to be werewolf. One of all players will be chosen randomly. You might be it!"

Of course, there is the alternative case:

"Somebody is hungry for humans! Beware!" (or human flesh)

This might give the players a nice topic to chat about at first day, trying to guess who is(are) the probable suspect(s). That way the game of deception can begin at game start, instead of first night, or even in the game lobby before start.

You can also give the first/new werewolf player a heads up by letting him know he has been chosen just after the vote. That way he can adjust his gameplay accordingly. Or you can keep the element of surprise. A lot of the games are ruined by the fact that villagers stand next to each other just before night and then one of them transforms. After that the werewolf identity is announced in the public chat and huge element of the game is lost.

HOWEVER:
By letting players opt out of being werewolf and firmly announcing to them after the vote that they won't be, will allow them to form double/triple bases with ease. That will make the game really hard for the werewolf player. Of course, this is also possible now, but makes more of the players reluctant to wait for first night before basing (loosing precious time) or to risk it at all.
Last edited by SarKonTaLk on Sun May 28, 2017 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Falanor
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby Falanor » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:55 am

I’ve thought of this a while ago. It may be tricky, but when we fix MMD system, we can use win/loss stats to shift chances on being the werewolf. I think combination of what SarKonTaLk suggested and this chance thing may be the best option.

For example if 3 players want to be a werewolf, one of them won 90% of games by ww, other two won only 30%, the guy with more winning rate will have higher chance of becoming a ww.
Or in cases when nobody wants to be a wolf, choose the most experienced guy (or increase his chance of becoming ww).

I can send information to map from the bot by using HCL system, so it’s possible.

Or at least we can use it to make sure that people who play first time on the bot are not becomming werewolf unless they want to.
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Jesse James
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby Jesse James » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:44 pm

How can we send information from the bot to the map? I thought that was impossible.

Also, this wouldn't work for the countless games not being played on fbot.
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Falanor
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby Falanor » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:18 pm

HCL (HostBot Command Library) http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?p=1094560
We tested it with Pwnage already.
It can send single character per player/computer which map can read as input. Usually its used for selecting different modes of the map.
We can encode a short message this way, or simply send a single value per each player (0-9) as his experience rank. We can even encode two numbers in one character (if we want to).

If HCL is not sent, we simply ignore that and use voting only. So, if its hosted on other bots its not a problem.
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SarKonTaLk
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby SarKonTaLk » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:32 pm

I am not sure if this will be something that the players will like.

    A couple of points:
  1. A very experienced player, who loves to be the werewolf, will always be chosen for the part, leaving the other players frustrated, especially if they join a couple of games in a row with him. Note that in order for the player to have good statistics, he is supposed to be playing a lot on the bot.
  2. Players with good statistics might get harassed even if they are not the werewolf. The slightest doubt that they might be the werewolf can get them team killed. Even before game start people will probably use the !stats command to determine who they are and cast their suspicion on them prior to the game.
  3. It can also surely be used as a hint. By using the !stats command players can check who has the greatest chance of being the werewolf even during the game.
  4. It will put a lot of players who want to learn to play as werewolf at disadvantage. They will have low chances of being selected and they will never be able to get better.
  5. In order to get better chances of playing as werewolf, players might prefer to host their own games. That will be especially true if they see a well known names in the game lobby before start, who have better chances then them of becoming the werewolf. That way the number of people playing on the bot might get smaller.
  6. Comparing your own statistics to the other players can give you a hint who is the werewolf If you have voted that you want to be, but you weren't chosen for the part.

In my opinion, everyone should have equal chances of becoming the werewolf regardless of their skills.
Last edited by SarKonTaLk on Sun May 28, 2017 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Falanor
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby Falanor » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:49 pm

Of course, this shouldn’t give absolute chance, I was talking about small shift of chances, for example if two players want to be a werewolf and one of them is experienced, we can give him 60% chance and other guy will have 40%. It’s not like the most experienced guy will be the werewolf for sure.

Even if we decide not to change chances as I described above, we can at least use this to make sure that a new player is not becoming a werewolf first few games (unless he chooses to become one).
Many games were wasted because werewolf was controlled by a totally new guy who was never playing the game before.

Yet I thought that we could add some “practice” modes of the game. If there is one person in the lobby and he types “!practice wolf”, the game will be launched with a fake player and that person will become a werewolf. Same for villager.
We can do that using same HCL system
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SarKonTaLk
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby SarKonTaLk » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:32 am

Falanor wrote:Even if we decide not to change chances as I described above, we can at least use this to make sure that a new player is not becoming a werewolf first few games (unless he chooses to become one).
Many games were wasted because werewolf was controlled by a totally new guy who was never playing the game before.

That surely sounds like a good idea.

Falanor wrote:Yet I thought that we could add some “practice” modes of the game. If there is one person in the lobby and he types “!practice wolf”, the game will be launched with a fake player and that person will become a werewolf. Same for villager.
We can do that using same HCL system

Can't the map be modified to detect if only one player is currently in the game at start? If that is possible the mode can be run without a problem on singleplayer without putting any additional strain on the bot and also making it available to everyone, but not just online bot players. A simple popup with 2 buttons can be displayed to the player, allowing him to choose the practice mode he/she wants.
Last edited by SarKonTaLk on Sun May 28, 2017 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarKonTaLk
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Re: To be or not to be Werewolf - Voting System

Postby SarKonTaLk » Sun May 28, 2017 4:54 am

bumped* . I noticed new version is out, but this was not implemented again. :) Just wanted to give you a reminder for the next one, so it won't slip between the cracks again.
Jesse James wrote:I think it just slipped between the cracks.
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Ingame name: TaIyn
Waiting for the removal of the Shield mining upgrade, balanced Scarecrow ability, Oak Towers Limit and an increase of the Spearshot cooldown :idea: :idea: :idea: