Game Duration

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Jesse James
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Game Duration

Postby Jesse James » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:57 pm

Hey guys!

Our super awesome bot administrator Falanor posted some statistics about WWT from fbot.You can view them here.

One thing that pops out is that games can last as long as 2 hours! I'd like to have the community discuss this happening. Here are a few questions you can use as a jumping off point but don't feel limited to them!

How do you feel about a game lasting 2 hours?

Do some individuals enjoy the role-playing aspect and want to continue a game for as long as possible?

Should we implement a "Terror" feature where after X amount of minutes it becomes perpetual night or the wolf gains a huge advantage in an attempt to expedite the end of the game?

Alternatively, we could decrease blessings and increase curses or increase the power and quantity of spawned enemies like raiders and beetles.
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Coronatorum
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Re: Game Duration

Postby Coronatorum » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:09 pm

From my experience many people love good, long-lasting games. Although for werewolf this is very troublesome, since the longer game goes - the lower chances of winning he has. I did some reaserch, and now i want to share it with you.

One night and day cycle lasts for 7,1 minutes. The night lasts for 3,1 minutes while day goes for 4 minutes. After playing as werewolf quite a lot, i can say that experienced wolf lvl-up for 2 lvls per night (sometimes he get lucky and manages to lvl-up for 3 lvls, but sometimes he is not, and lvl-ups only for 1 lvl). Also, good wolf is capable to kill successfully starting from lvl 6, and, if he is unlucky to find anyone, he starts killing from lvl 7-8 (lvl 6 he usually acquires at the end of night two, so he start hunting villagers at the start of night 3 (its 19-th minute of the game). Let us suggest that wolf is good, and capable of killing 1-2 villegers per night. In that case, after two nights of hunting he manages to do -3-4 villagers (its already 35+ minute of the game) at that point he is usually lvl 13-14. And then the problems occurs- there are still at least 3 ppl left, and at that point they have pretty strong army, that werewolf is not capable of beating, so he is forced to go lvl-uping on animals. While he lvl-ups the villagers defence grows and grows.. And then he finally reaches lvl 25! (its usually takes for 1 to 1.2 hrs - depends if there are zombies or not) And he cant do anything to them! - by that time, usually, defence is geting ridiculous, everyone has fishnets and toxic bombs (OP fihnet description) AND, the worst part!! At that point villagers can have 5k+ hp, what makes them unbeatable... Coffee grows for about 3.3 minutes (3.1 minutes when it rains and 3.5 minutes when it snows), if farmers start growing ccoffee after 15 minutes from start (and i see more and more people doing that) then in 45 minutes they can make around 14 stacks of coffee! Its + 4200 to 8400 HP! (depends if they are gathering herbs from wondering traveller or not) Well ok.. usually they dont gather herbs from traveling market.. but it is still +4200 hp! Combining with mining it makes them unbeatable! And the longer game goes, the stronger villagers get, while werewolf is not!

I think the solution for those issues + making late game more challanging is pretty simple:
1) Make maximum possible HP for villagers (3k hp would be enough - see no reson to give them more)
2)When werewolf reches lvl 25 his consuming skill should give +1 to ALL his stats! Than will not only encourage people not to just camp, but too SEARCH for werewolf at day, to DIG OUT corpses and kill ghouls in order not letting werewolf to grow power - it will add more dynamicsin game! (id even make +2 to all stats, since there is an issue with corpses - they sometimes just vanish, so there are not so many ghouls there)

ALSO! I dont thing that making eternal werewolf at lvl 25 is good idea - since he wont be able to rebuild his base at day then, and wolf needs his human army in late games. Instead, i suggest you add werewolf ability to turn into wolf and back to human whenever he will want to. How about that?
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Falanor
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Re: Game Duration

Postby Falanor » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:27 pm

As addition to what Coro said I had an idea while watching for some replays when zombies were staying in game.
Right now, if a zombie stays and helps villagers hunt the wolf, it becomes very troublesome to win the game for him.

Yet we have ‘losers’ problem – people think that they lost and just quit usually because it’s not as fun to play for zombie as for villager/wolf.
So, I thought maybe it’s better if we force zombies to help wolf. But they shouldn’t see him because they can tell its position to other players (as a revenge for example).

Or maybe even go further and make zombies capable of ‘capturing’ a villager (eat his brains perhaps?!) and becoming him instead. This gives “second chance” and should make people stay even after wolf killed them. Yet this will make villagers help each other.
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kanzer
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Re: Game Duration

Postby kanzer » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:07 pm

Falanor wrote:As addition to what Coro said I had an idea while watching for some replays when zombies were staying in game.
Right now, if a zombie stays and helps villagers hunt the wolf, it becomes very troublesome to win the game for him.

Yet we have ‘losers’ problem – people think that they lost and just quit usually because it’s not as fun to play for zombie as for villager/wolf.
So, I thought maybe it’s better if we force zombies to help wolf. But they shouldn’t see him because they can tell its position to other players (as a revenge for example).

Or maybe even go further and make zombies capable of ‘capturing’ a villager (eat his brains perhaps?!) and becoming him instead. This gives “second chance” and should make people stay even after wolf killed them. Yet this will make villagers help each other.


OMG Zombies need brains!! 1.27 need this
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Claw
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Re: Game Duration

Postby Claw » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:47 pm

changing the game duration is an amazing idea, but it needs a lot of consulting before anything can change since i experienced many different situations in game, as wolf, villager and zombie, some things were good, but some were very bad.
i agree with Coronatorum on some facts, ww should get more buffing after certain levels, new passive ability or more stats is a great idea, perhaps stronger minions can emerge from corpse when he's lvl 20 (just suggesting) or something like that.
on the other hand i would disagree with what you said about ww being in disadvantage the longer game goes, frankly i think it's rather the opposite, because in that case if you play correctly, you can make your villager stronger as well and you don't need to focus certain jobs like fishing or hunting since the net and spear won't help you much- rather focus on forging and brewing, since your food limit is reduced. that way the ww player become a threat even during the day.
now about the game duration; there was a considerable number of games in which ww didn't have a base, or a developed base, trough out almost the entire game. so in late game he didn't have any human army to support him, the minions get decimated instantly against other players, his villager is low lvl but so is the ww during night, since he can't inflict much damage, so the only thing he was doing was running around the map the whole time, in some serious cases there were geniuses who chopped the trees with whim of the druids, remained hidden during the day in some corner of the map, and continued to run around during night. those games are very frustrating since obviously he won't win by doing that and is hoping that players will become bored and leave; to make it worse, players who do that are often very toxic, as they are aware of the fact that they can't win by fair means, so they even flame and provoke the remaining players in order to make them rage or quit.
those are my thoughts for now, as i said there should be more topics like this, since this is a manner that needs to be discussed
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Falanor
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Re: Game Duration

Postby Falanor » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:20 pm

Claw wrote:i would disagree with what you said about ww being in disadvantage the longer game goes, frankly i think it's rather the opposite, because in that case if you play correctly, you can make your villager stronger as well and you don't need to focus certain jobs like fishing or hunting since the net and spear won't help you much- rather focus on forging and brewing, since your food limit is reduced. that way the ww player become a threat even during the day.

My statement was based on bot statistics. It’s a bit out of date right now since it was for version 1.26. Soon I'll add live charts on the bot page, it will help us understand the situation better.

You won 10 games for werewolf out of 10 and 85% of games as villager on our bot. You are super experienced player and unfortunately (or fortunately) not many can show such results even after playing hundreds of hours.

What we are trying to do is to balance the game so that an 'average' person has equal chances to win both as villager and as werewolf.
After 1.27.01 launch we have 123 werewolf wins and 353 villager's, that is 25% of wolf wins, way too few to say about balance. I see ideal balance in 50% win rate wolf/villager.

It’s quite hard to decide what should be boosted and what nerfed.
I think we should start from shifting chances on becoming werewolf or voting system (or combination of both).

Now about players that are playing hide-and-seek. Its almost impossible to track down such activity and add triggers/actions to deal with those in map/bot. I'd consider using !votekick command (usage is described here). If a werewolf is kicked, it is considered as quit for him, and on next night there will be a new one even on late game. I cant see any other way to deal with such players right now.
Claw
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Re: Game Duration

Postby Claw » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:17 pm

i see, well there was a topic in which someone mention the voting system, like in the map troll vs elves, i was thinking if it was possible to pick ww based on player's statistics- if he's new to the game then he shouldn't be chosen yet, if the player has 15-20 games played (more or less), then he gets in the picking roster.
also, regarding the zombie, the idea of zombies getting their villagers back trough other players is amazing- that would make things more entertaining for the zombie player, also if zombies could perhaps have their movement speed increased after certain levels, since then they can at least catch up with army units.
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Jesse James
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Re: Game Duration

Postby Jesse James » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:05 pm

The problem with implementing a statistics based choosing system is that it would only work on Fbot. Any other bot (Like MMH) wouldn't be able to use the feature.

Voting to be wolf with the default option being "Not wolf" seems the best way to prevent new players from getting in over their head on the first game. I still think we need to weigh our options though. This kind of system would require quite a bit of time for us to work in and bug test and I want to make sure we do it the best way possible.
StrelokNPP
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Re: Game Duration

Postby StrelokNPP » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:47 am

Claw makes sense lately, world is about to end.
Claw
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Re: Game Duration

Postby Claw » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:32 pm

it's nice to know that there's someone thinking about me on a daily basis, strolok <3
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trollcunning
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Re: Game Duration

Postby trollcunning » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:24 pm

No need to make something new here. Just tweak down the OP fishnet skill. It should help everyone and players should play faster.

Claw made point that players can cheat the strategy and start a flame war to force some players to rage quit. I'm personally didn't care much about statistics. I'm playing for fun.
But this "malodorous" behavior is basically ruining the gaming experience for every player in the game. And the server have rules on that. You may look at it from this point of view.