Dogue, or the "dog harassment"

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Coronatorum
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Dogue, or the "dog harassment"

Postby Coronatorum » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:35 pm

Good eavening!
Lots of players - lots of ways to play this game. Some find a cozy corner to set a farm and fortify their base, some go mining/hunting/fihing to lvl-up village and dont focus at setting base at start and some do those things combined. But one thing they usually have in common - at start they are attached to particular place. There is where "dog harassment" comes. Dog could be unlocked very fast, and its damage is insane at the beginning, especially if u kill something with it. At this point dog can kill villager at lvl 1-5 in no time. Usually the responce to "overpowered dog" is something like "everyone has the same access to it, and it is possible to counter one dog with another. But that is quite wrong in my opinion.

For example player (will call him Jon) decided to start his game with mining - there are two places where he can do so. He comes, start doing so, and then some other player (will call him Bob) who rushed farm and decided to go mining without sharing that spot with anyone, sends dog and forces Jon, who is mining there at that moment, to leave. (or kills him)
What can Jon do in this situation? (if he survived ofcourse - with high dog speed its impossible to run from dog if u dont have adrenaline rush) Well ofcourse he can just go to other mining spot, but, sometimes, other spot is also taken/crowded with werewolf corpses.

This situation could also happend towards bases of players, who set first two buildings and then go lvl-up. For example. Jon constructed first two structures at waterfall and went hunting/fishing. Other player did the same, but at random nearest place in order to build farm asap and move to waterfall later. So when he receives dog he send it to waterfall location and do everything to make Jon move out from there. And sometimes Jon, at the moment of dogs attack dont have his own dog, and lumberjacks/milita can do nothing to offender (even if dog get killed the agresson can always resummon it. cooldown is not long).

There are just few examples, there are lots of ways to annoy/kill willager at start of the game. And i actually see no reason for such high attack damage that dog has. Dog is usually used to carry things/help in hunt/protect house from animals/ seek werewolf - all those tasks could be done with less HP and attack. OR dogs attack and hp could be left the same, but then it would be resonable to make it harder to get the dog (dog could be given after you build chickken hut or after some task).

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Jesse James
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Re: Dogue, or the "dog harassment"

Postby Jesse James » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:23 pm

Some data to add to the discussion.

Dog:
Base Damage: 67-68
Attack Cooldown: 1.3
Attack Type: Normal
Armor Type: Unarmored
Defense Base: 0
Movement Speed: 250
Hit Points: 500
Cooldown: 2 minutes

Villager:
Base Damage: 27-37
Attack Cooldown: 2.2
Attack Type: Normal
Armor Type: Unarmored
Defense Base: -1
Movement Speed: 260
Hit Points: 350
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Falanor
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Re: Dogue, or the "dog harassment"

Postby Falanor » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:33 pm

I think its better to make dog not able of hitting villagers (like Hunters are) or add some permanent debuff to dog that decreases damage done to villager (by 70-80%). It's obviously too powered.
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Tonex
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Re: Dogue, or the "dog harassment"

Postby Tonex » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:09 pm

I agree. Dogs seem to balanced more for the mid/late game, so they should get a substantial nerf. However, I think there should also be a way to scale up damage/move speed later in the game, maybe with a single "dog training" upgrade.
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Jesse James
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Re: Dogue, or the "dog harassment"

Postby Jesse James » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:25 pm

Other suggestions to consider:

Dog increases in power every morning.

Dog increases in power as it kills more units.

Dog increases in power the longer you have had it.
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Coronatorum
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Re: Dogue, or the "dog harassment"

Postby Coronatorum » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:31 pm

How about an idea that dog wont be able to atack villagers at start, but later, after building plantation, there would be an option to train dog to attack villagers? Something like "train dog to hound"?
Or to make three-steps upgrade for early-mid-late game? At start it will be "pup" - 5-10 attack and 1 slot for items, then, in upgraded mill it will be trained to "dog" - something like the dog we have at the moment, but it wont be able to attack villagers, and then final upgrade to "hound" - could be a bit stronger than the dog we have at the moment + 3-d slot for items and being able to attack humans?
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Pwnage
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Re: Dogue, or the "dog harassment"

Postby Pwnage » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:43 pm

Coronatorum wrote:How about an idea that dog wont be able to atack villagers at start, but later, after building plantation, there would be an option to train dog to attack villagers?


In my opinion, the problem with this suggestion is the dog's ability to act as both an offensive unit against other villagers, and likewise a defensive unit against animals, villagers, and the werewolf. Let's investigate the 1.26 changes to early game animals:
Jesse James wrote:
  • Wolves wont spawn until the 2nd morning
  • Bears wont spawn until the 3rd morning
  • Stags spawn extra the first three days to offset the absence of wolves and bears
  • Increased the number of rabbits that spawn


Immediately, we can dismiss the dog's early game necessity for animal defense due to the lack of particularly powerful foes. Furthermore, safety net and low early damage for the werewolf followed by the complete lack of werewolf minions during the first night excludes werewolf safety as a primary use for a pupper. This leaves us with a unit that is effectively only useful for remotely purchasing items from shops, or harassment. As a fundamental principle of the WWT meta, "team killing" has been frowned upon ubiquitously. Adding a feature that would explicitly promote team killing (such as training a dog to attack villagers) would be contrary to popular opinion, and will therefore most likely not be seriously considered. However, since there are no proper teams established in WWT, it would be counter intuitive to disable doggos from attacking other players. This philosophy is actualized when imagining a scenario where a player is able to purchase low-tier melee units at a much faster pace than another. I would argue that having access to a dog able to attack an enemy villager/troops and put up a somewhat viable defense is more valuable than having a dog that does diddly-squat until you waste resources better spent on proper defenses.

Baring this in mind, I'm in favor of making a dog's power scaling. It would be logical that a seasoned dog is able to inflict more damage. % damage increase per kill, % health increase by age? Finding a sweet zone for both of these may be finicky, but there should be a reward for letting a dog survive, since it's quite an effective strategy to use one dog to heavily injure a unit, and then simply spawning another (assuming the spell is off cooldown) to finish the job/inflict more damage. I do not oppose a cap to either of these attributes.
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Pro_MiXoN
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Re: Dogue, or the "dog harassment"

Postby Pro_MiXoN » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:19 pm

i agree with Coronatorum,that would be like that in next patch