Let's Talk End Game

Post and discuss your suggestions for future Werewolf versions here.
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KidsEatFree
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Re: Let's Talk End Game

Postby KidsEatFree » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:37 pm

I have to disagree with a lot of what's been said. To say that winning for villagers is easy and all it requires is working together and juggling multiple professions in order to successfully hunt wolf during day, that's not realistic. Theirs only a handful of players on this server even good enough to do that. Its not healthy for the game that the skill floor is so high that its impossible for casual players to even hope to have fun playing it or even win.
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Pwnage
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Re: Let's Talk End Game

Postby Pwnage » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:02 pm

KidsEatFree wrote:I have to disagree with a lot of what's been said. To say that winning for villagers is easy and all it requires is working together and juggling multiple professions in order to successfully hunt wolf during day, that's not realistic. Theirs only a handful of players on this server even good enough to do that. Its not healthy for the game that the skill floor is so high that its impossible for casual players to even hope to have fun playing it or even win.


Only quoting this, but I've read this entire thread.

I agree that the game feels pretty good right now. I also agree that the skill cap has increased significantly now that the werewolf is a threat throughout the game. Furthermore, the game often stalemates. I recently had a game with Coronotorum where it was left to us two. Sure, I could've grinded out for 5 more days and nights to get fishnet and spear and I would've been able to cripple his economy easier than he would've been able to cripple mine and I would have EVENTUALLY won. I've played 2 and 3 hour games that have gone like this, and it just becomes incredibly frustrating. In order to sustain hunting the werewolf in villager form, you need to be able to effectively spam espionage, which at 2k+ a pop is no cheap task. Your economy has to be golden to be able to do this. It's second nature for me to micro manage my economy with merchants, animals, crops, eggs, stag skin drums, whatever, but this is after nearly 10 years of playing this game, and I still could be more efficient.

Point being: late game is a serious problem. Let me pose a few halfbaked ideas to see what you guys think. I'm not married to any of these ideas in particular, and I'd like to brainstorm a sustainable way to fix the late game.

Idea 1) Silver Spears
  • Change mined gold into silver (still can sell for profit)
  • Silver spears allow Villager (and maybe adolescent males) attack the werewolf with ranged attacks
  • Have some sort of fantasy-based special effect that would cripple the werewolf in some unique way so as not to just increase DPS of villager's base

Idea 2) Profession Mastery
  • Right now, professions have skills that you unlock after some sort of milestone (Toxic Bomb, Fish Net, Transmute...), however, only 3 of these really translate into adding utility to kill the werewolf (Bomb, Spear, Net)
  • Introduce mechanics which can be acquired at profession mastery to aid in defeating the werewolf. Just to spitball some ideas:
    • Farming: After 300 crops planted, be able to grow Nightshade (to be used with brewing)
    • Brewing: After 40 potions brewed, be able to brew Night's Bane potion (use on werewolf to turn him into villager? Disable his abilities?)
  • Idk, just spitballing

Ideas 3) Your Wife is Important <3
  • Make wife a hero
  • Give her 6 slots of inventory
  • Allow her a mechanic after some level of mastery (or maybe after having all of her sons) to learn some sort of tether to keep the wolf in place
  • Would prioritize killing wife early
  • Would give a very clear cut way to keep the werewolf in one place when he's attacking so he may die

Again, just spitballing. Let's try to focus on lategame as I believe balancing to the maximum time a game can last is a viable approach.

Also please be patient with any typos, writing this at work
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dudlan66
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Re: Let's Talk End Game

Postby dudlan66 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:12 pm

In regards to Kidseatsfree post, I definitely agree with at least one point. I think Werewolf player at this stage can abuse whim of druid a bit and wait in trees until becomes lvl 25 . I think this is not fair for many regular players. I also agree that villager can abuse in some ways ,but not to extent that it is impossible for WW to win the game.

For me personally I think there are 2 ways to solve this problem,

First create 2 types of espionages (One that locate buildings and other that sense WW player in the map - same as WW sense) So that way ww wouldn't be able to abuse whims . WW sense could be also created as new ability with same cooldown as ww has during the day time

Second increase the price of whim item to 420 gold or keep gradually increasing price depended on the amount of whims bought. So for example first 4 whims would cost you 200 gold and after that 50% increase each time bought. This however may be impossible by game mechanics so just price increase should work
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Pwnage
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Re: Let's Talk End Game

Postby Pwnage » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:03 pm

We could simply give the werewolf some ability to destroy trees at level 25 or something. I don't think whim is a problem, just a solution to a set of larger problems.
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dudlan66
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Re: Let's Talk End Game

Postby dudlan66 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:42 pm

Well try playing with ww who hides in trees all game long until they reach lvl 25 . I think this is issue . If we can't have ability to sense them then it will create more problems because game can go forever
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KidsEatFree
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Re: Let's Talk End Game

Postby KidsEatFree » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:55 pm

Pwnage wrote:We could simply give the werewolf some ability to destroy trees at level 25 or something. I don't think whim is a problem, just a solution to a set of larger problems.


I think this is a healthy dialogue and I'm glad we are going with a solution focuses approach.

I believe adding an ability to Werewolf to eat trees at level 25 would be a solid fix to Villager Whim of the Druid abuse.

I think Dudlan has a good point though about having a secondary technology that's similar to espionage but reveals villager locations persistently. I think maybe an upgrade could be available that adds a persistent reveal around villagers for a longer period, maybe 30 seconds. This would be an upgrade.

Maybe Wife could gain an ability when villager hits lvl 25 that gives her far sight ability. I think if wife had the additional ability to reveal WE location when we under 40% hp would really play into the repeal and hunt thematic experience.

I think craftable silver spears is a great idea thematically. Maybe this could inflict cripple status on Werewolf of like 4% attack speed, move speed, ect stackable up to 10 times.

Lastly, I think we should all remember two Movies, Hunger Games, and Battle Royal. In hunger games to bring players closer together to finish each other off they gradually introduced op neural creeps to kill everyone. In battle royal they progressively removed parts of the playable area as players died to reduce map size and force confrontations.

So I guess is it possible to either remove parts of the map from play or introduce player verse environment threats that us players can't beat to force us into a progressively smaller map space.
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Coronatorum
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Re: Let's Talk End Game

Postby Coronatorum » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:15 am

Idea 1) Silver Spears
Change mined gold into silver (still can sell for profit)
Silver spears allow Villager (and maybe adolescent males) attack the werewolf with ranged attacks
Have some sort of fantasy-based special effect that would cripple the werewolf in some unique way so as not to just increase DPS of villager's base


This seems like a good idea. It will make villager more usefull while defending base + it could be used in chading enemy with same movement speed :) Although i think it would me necessary to make this "silver spear" autoatack range twice smaller than musheteers range. Im against any slow that the woukd be able to inflict though - cuz there is enough of that already)

Idea 2) Profession Mastery
Right now, professions have skills that you unlock after some sort of milestone (Toxic Bomb, Fish Net, Transmute...), however, only 3 of these really translate into adding utility to kill the werewolf (Bomb, Spear, Net)
Introduce mechanics which can be acquired at profession mastery to aid in defeating the werewolf. Just to spitball some ideas:
Farming: After 300 crops planted, be able to grow Nightshade (to be used with brewing)
Brewing: After 40 potions brewed, be able to brew Night's Bane potion (use on werewolf to turn him into villager? Disable his abilities?)


I think there is more than enough of speed buffs/slows and ways for villagers to stand their ground or ways to catch werewolf at day. It is just that most of the people think that werewolf must come in their hands by himself :) There is a 30 second cooldown toxic bomb that gives 10-15 sec slow and Jasmine tea, that will help u to keep up after werewolf while toxic bomb is on cd, there are knights, who have higher movement speed than werewolf on lvl 25 (!) but only few good players use it because it is much easier just to camp and not to search for werewolf at day. So in my opinion it would be impossible to win as werewolf if there will be another slows/stuns/speed buffs added).

use on werewolf to turn him into villager


This one would make ww dead in every game. Even now werewolfs hp melts in few seconds against hardcore campers (even when werewolfs hp is around 10k) and if it would be possible to transform ww into villager during siege - it would kill the werewolf role.

Ideas 3) Your Wife is Important <3
Make wife a hero
Give her 6 slots of inventory
Allow her a mechanic after some level of mastery (or maybe after having all of her sons) to learn some sort of tether to keep the wolf in place
Would prioritize killing wife early
Would give a very clear cut way to keep the werewolf in one place when he's attacking so he may die


This one really sounds great. Although even now wife is target #1 on every werewolfs list. But i like the idea to make children able to give some aditional slow/hero ability. Although it think its a really bad idea to change anything with wife. She is fine as she is - squishy core target that even now most of good players hide away from their bases. If we make her hero-type she will be buffed to max hp/armor (and it is really easy to buff HP in this patch) and she will be unkillable in early/mid game just as the villagers who do same to them. But the idea that adolescent males will receive some ability seems really nice to me.

I think Dudlan has a good point though about having a secondary technology that's similar to espionage but reveals villager locations persistently. I think maybe an upgrade could be available that adds a persistent reveal around villagers for a longer period, maybe 30 seconds. This would be an upgrade.

Maybe Wife could gain an ability when villager hits lvl 25 that gives her far sight ability. I think if wife had the additional ability to reveal WE location when we under 40% hp would really play into the repeal and hunt thematic experience.


Espionage for villagers will ruin the idea of the game. If it will be possible to check ALL the villagers it will kill the game aspect (hunt and search, disguise and confuse others). I see it as another excuse for lazy players who dont want to do any effort in order to win the game. ALTHOUGH i agree that sometimes there are trolls who hide in trees and go afk. This is an issue sometimes, therefore i think it would be a good idea to make visable ALL villager troops including himself in case he dont build ANY structure for 1 day.