My balance sugestions

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OrcinusOrca
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My balance sugestions

Postby OrcinusOrca » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:08 pm

In this stage WW is nearly impossible to play.
If you get double netted you are dead
Net - 15 not 12 to farm and 4 sec stun 15 sec cd. If you are the WW and you see 3 players fishing together there is no point to attack. You die to permastun.
Zombies - abolish them, at current stage they are just retarded. You are the WW, you face people with nets and then you got also zombies with stun. The biggest problem is the fact that zombies eat corpses and are taking WW down on levels when he is behind levels anyway. There are basically 2 options. You kill people at the very beginning and you create corps eating army that will drag you down or you attack later when everyone gets his army and die during day facing 1 v 2 or 1 v 3 situations.
When Villager dies he is kicked out like WW. No zombie, no ghost, nothing. You are dead :arrow: GTFO
Auras! WW needs auras. His ulty should give him permanent perks. When you fight as Villager one of the strongest advantages are auras. You have - 5 armor aura, 25 % attack boost aura from torch and minor attack speed and move speed aura.
My ida is - lvl 6 + 10% dmg aura for ww units only, lvl 12 + 20 % dmg aura WW units only and lvl 25 + 25 % dmg + 5 armor WW units only. Now somebody will think that this is insane because WW will have 600 dmg. Well nerf his base attack on higher levels.
Acorn bombs should be deleted and acorns should be used in catapults. Acorn bombs are biggest advantage you have vs noobs and there is no skill in them. You make 4 bombs, find player with no shield and he is dead. GG WP. On the other hand catapults are useless. Lets make catapults useful but they will need acorns to shoot. 1 acorn - 1 shot.
Dogs. They need to be balanced. If you play 8 players game and everyone is using dog to hunt WW is fucked. When me and other players were using them and you had 1 - 2 players hunting with dog in his area it was fine but now it is insane. Everyone is hunting. If you are the WW and you do not find any animals during first night it will go only downhill. The dogs need some nerf and right now I am not sure what kind of nerf. Maybe they should be able to defeat only animals like raccoons, deer and rabbits. Boar and higher should kill them. Also they are strong in harass. When you know how to use them it is GG. Usually WW goes to mine and when you find a dude with no boots lvl 2 - 3 mining he is dead. Also they are used to destroy players economy. If you do not like someone you just find his base with dog and start killing his shit. There is little chance to defend because one dog can fight 6 militia guys. Attack should be halved down for dogs or main building should be able to shoot something at dogs so they can not ruin your economy in first 3 minutes of the game.
Some minor things - anti magic shield should be 30 ore.
Hunting spear 150 throws and no spear to use. Inventory is a real problem in late game when you have boots, auras, cheese + every time you drop your spear to buy something you declare war on animals.
This is all for now, maybe later I will have more ideas.
British Merchant
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby British Merchant » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:03 pm

Firstly ,WW can have aura's if he is smart and uses his kids to hold it... What you suggesting is insane
Secondly , nerfing dog would make game very boring and only farmers would carry on playing
Lastly immune shield should be removed as what is the point of other abilities when you have shield?

No offence but I think all these suggestions apart from acorn bombs are very unintelligent and would imbalance game greatly.
Well everyone is entitled to express their opinions tho
OrcinusOrca
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby OrcinusOrca » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:44 pm

British Merchant wrote:Firstly ,WW can have aura's if he is smart and uses his kids to hold it... What you suggesting is insane
Secondly , nerfing dog would make game very boring and only farmers would carry on playing
Lastly immune shield should be removed as what is the point of other abilities when you have shield?

No offence but I think all these suggestions apart from acorn bombs are very unintelligent and would imbalance game greatly.
Well everyone is entitled to express their opinions tho



Yea but if you face archer they can one shot your kids. Or transmute them and bye bye aura. I am not sure what is the level of your skill but I on top level have real difficulties to defeat players who know how to build things. And I was using dog to kill players many times. Now it is boring to me. There is no way how to defend your self against dog at low level. If you focus dude you kill him before his dog will kill your so yea they need nerf. Also in 8 player game you get 7 dogs hunting animals that take exp from WW. Another thing is that many players use dog to fuck with others and there is not much you can do about that just burn base and start again.
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Pwnage
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby Pwnage » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:54 am

Hey OrcinusOrca, welcome the forums and thanks for your suggestions, I'll address them to the best of my ability.
OrcinusOrca wrote:In this stage WW is nearly impossible to play.
If you get double netted you are dead
Net - 15 not 12 to farm and 4 sec stun 15 sec cd. If you are the WW and you see 3 players fishing together there is no point to attack. You die to permastun.

I've addressed this in other posts, but here's the rundown for the next version (all tentative, of course):
Requirements for Fish Net: 12 King Crabs (nerf back to 1.26 AKA squids will no longer affect your count)
Fish Net: 4 second duration, 30 sec CD, not a stun, just a 100% slow (i.e. victim can still attack/cast spells while netted)
This will heavily diminish Fish Net's productivity as an insta-win tool, and should alone make playing as the werewolf viable.
OrcinusOrca wrote:Zombies - abolish them ... The biggest problem is the fact that zombies eat corpses and are taking WW down on levels when he is behind levels anyway ...

I hate zombies too, my friend. They are nuisance (to me) and were implemented as a kind gesture to defeated players. However, zombies have earned their claim in the game and we will not be removing them. Playing as the zombie is really not fun, so if a player is able to be entertained as a zombie, well, good for him! Here's a topic that has some more discussion on the matter if you'd like to see where some of us stand:
http://forums.vofpro.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=877
OrcinusOrca wrote:Auras! WW needs auras. His ulty should give him permanent perks. When you fight as Villager one of the strongest advantages are auras. You have - 5 armor aura, 25 % attack boost aura from torch and minor attack speed and move speed aura.
My ida is - lvl 6 + 10% dmg aura for ww units only, lvl 12 + 20 % dmg aura WW units only and lvl 25 + 25 % dmg + 5 armor WW units only. Now somebody will think that this is insane because WW will have 600 dmg. Well nerf his base attack on higher levels.

These aren't bad suggestions, but I'm going to say that there almost certainly will be no aura directly given to the wolf next patch. However, we are planning on making ghouls stronger as they age, so there is hope in the sense of minions getting stronger. With the loads of changes that villagers will be experiencing in the next patch (spoiler, mostly nerfs), we want to be careful not to over buff the werewolf, otherwise we've simply shifted the imbalance the opposite way. It's true that we do want the Werewolf to be considerably stronger than villagers (since it's 7 v 1 in many instances), but we want villagers to still have a fighting chance. Stay tuned for more updates on the werewolf and his army.
OrcinusOrca wrote:Acorn bombs should be deleted and acorns should be used in catapults ...

Agreed, they should be removed or at minimum reworked. For instance, maybe they should no longer stun or be targeted items, but something you can throw? Like weak, thrown dynamite, perhaps? Not sure. The reason I wouldn't want to make them part of catapult/trebuchets is because I don't think they it'll make them any more appealing if they have more moving parts. I also don't think they're useless, just uncommonly used.
OrcinusOrca wrote:Dogs. They need to be balanced ...

This was lost in the implementation of 1.27.01, but I'll include some sort of fix for the dog in the next patch.
http://forums.vofpro.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=787
OrcinusOrca wrote:Some minor things - anti magic shield should be 30 ore.

I believe the solution is to remove anti-magic. Now that there are no magic units, you simply protect yourself indefinitely from all hard-earned harm - this is not a fair advantage to buy.
OrcinusOrca wrote:Hunting spear 150 throws and no spear to use. Inventory is a real problem in late game when you have boots, auras, cheese + every time you drop your spear to buy something you declare war on animals.

I believe 150 throws is fair, though we will need to do testing to assure this. I will remove the requirement for spear bundle, it's not fair that it is the only skill requiring a slot in your inventory, which is very sacred late in the game.

Once again, thank you for your suggestions and I hope my replies are satisfactory. Happy playing! :)
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OrcinusOrca
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby OrcinusOrca » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:54 am

Pwnage wrote:Hey OrcinusOrca, welcome the forums and thanks for your suggestions, I'll address them to the best of my ability.
OrcinusOrca wrote:In this stage WW is nearly impossible to play.
If you get double netted you are dead
Net - 15 not 12 to farm and 4 sec stun 15 sec cd. If you are the WW and you see 3 players fishing together there is no point to attack. You die to permastun.

I've addressed this in other posts, but here's the rundown for the next version (all tentative, of course):
Requirements for Fish Net: 12 King Crabs (nerf back to 1.26 AKA squids will no longer affect your count)
Fish Net: 4 second duration, 30 sec CD, not a stun, just a 100% slow (i.e. victim can still attack/cast spells while netted)
This will heavily diminish Fish Net's productivity as an insta-win tool, and should alone make playing as the werewolf viable.
OrcinusOrca wrote:Zombies - abolish them ... The biggest problem is the fact that zombies eat corpses and are taking WW down on levels when he is behind levels anyway ...

I hate zombies too, my friend. They are nuisance (to me) and were implemented as a kind gesture to defeated players. However, zombies have earned their claim in the game and we will not be removing them. Playing as the zombie is really not fun, so if a player is able to be entertained as a zombie, well, good for him! Here's a topic that has some more discussion on the matter if you'd like to see where some of us stand:
http://forums.vofpro.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=877
OrcinusOrca wrote:Auras! WW needs auras. His ulty should give him permanent perks. When you fight as Villager one of the strongest advantages are auras. You have - 5 armor aura, 25 % attack boost aura from torch and minor attack speed and move speed aura.
My ida is - lvl 6 + 10% dmg aura for ww units only, lvl 12 + 20 % dmg aura WW units only and lvl 25 + 25 % dmg + 5 armor WW units only. Now somebody will think that this is insane because WW will have 600 dmg. Well nerf his base attack on higher levels.

These aren't bad suggestions, but I'm going to say that there almost certainly will be no aura directly given to the wolf next patch. However, we are planning on making ghouls stronger as they age, so there is hope in the sense of minions getting stronger. With the loads of changes that villagers will be experiencing in the next patch (spoiler, mostly nerfs), we want to be careful not to over buff the werewolf, otherwise we've simply shifted the imbalance the opposite way. It's true that we do want the Werewolf to be considerably stronger than villagers (since it's 7 v 1 in many instances), but we want villagers to still have a fighting chance. Stay tuned for more updates on the werewolf and his army.
OrcinusOrca wrote:Acorn bombs should be deleted and acorns should be used in catapults ...

Agreed, they should be removed or at minimum reworked. For instance, maybe they should no longer stun or be targeted items, but something you can throw? Like weak, thrown dynamite, perhaps? Not sure. The reason I wouldn't want to make them part of catapult/trebuchets is because I don't think they it'll make them any more appealing if they have more moving parts. I also don't think they're useless, just uncommonly used.
OrcinusOrca wrote:Dogs. They need to be balanced ...

This was lost in the implementation of 1.27.01, but I'll include some sort of fix for the dog in the next patch.
http://forums.vofpro.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=787
OrcinusOrca wrote:Some minor things - anti magic shield should be 30 ore.

I believe the solution is to remove anti-magic. Now that there are no magic units, you simply protect yourself indefinitely from all hard-earned harm - this is not a fair advantage to buy.
OrcinusOrca wrote:Hunting spear 150 throws and no spear to use. Inventory is a real problem in late game when you have boots, auras, cheese + every time you drop your spear to buy something you declare war on animals.

I believe 150 throws is fair, though we will need to do testing to assure this. I will remove the requirement for spear bundle, it's not fair that it is the only skill requiring a slot in your inventory, which is very sacred late in the game.

Once again, thank you for your suggestions and I hope my replies are satisfactory. Happy playing! :)



Please do not take this as a treat - I am thinking about leaving WW trans because of zombies. This will be my decision it is not in a way - delete zombies or I quit. I am just not having fun as a WW when there are 3 - 4 zombies in the game.
The fact that you kill player and then he can destroy your base and take down minions so you can not farm and exp is too much. I had a game where I killed 6 players and lost to 7th because of constant threat of zombies. They were camping fishing spots and mining spots. Also I think we need one more mining spot. In 8 players game 2 are not enough.
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Ruoska
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby Ruoska » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:58 am

I am thinking about leaving WW trans because of zombies. This will be my decision it is not in a way - delete zombies or I quit. I am just not having fun as a WW when there are 3 - 4 zombies in the game.
The fact that you kill player and then he can destroy your base and take down minions so you can not farm and exp is too much. I had a game where I killed 6 players and lost to 7th because of constant threat of zombies. They were camping fishing spots and mining spots. Also I think we need one more mining spot. In 8 players game 2 are not enough



I agree 100% with you Orca, often as a werewolf or villager I died by zombies. Leaving after death no zombies, ghosts, spirits or pets, short and to the point you die You're taken out.

If you die anyway you lost the game, it makes no sense to stay in the game and to ruin the good mood of the other players
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Stormblessed
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby Stormblessed » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:56 pm

As much as I am not fond of Orca entirely, I need to state here that I agree with most of his claims but most importantly the thing about ZOMBIES

damn they are upsetting, they stink and they're ugly, and all they do is serve as a form of petty retribution for brats who never learnt in preschool how to lose with dignity and keep poking you with that twig in the shape of zombie

Gotta wait patiently for the next patch cause currently as it is now, not much fun in there buddy lol( thrill of the hunt is gone so to speak :D)
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Pwnage
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby Pwnage » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:23 am

Perhaps the start of the game will start with a vote in order to decide if dead players should become zombies? Now that the community is becoming increasingly competitive, I'd be happy to add such an option. I wouldn't want to remove them all together, but if the vast majority of game are started with zombies being voted against, we'd have an empirical reason to remove them.

I've been getting more and more requests to release a new version to fix imbalances, so I'll attempt to put in some extra time this weekend and potentially finish patching. Typically we like to release brand new content, but it seems the state of the game is threatening to drive players away, and I believe it needs a quick fix.
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dudlan66
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby dudlan66 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:23 am

I believe that the reason there are zombies is to prevent teamkilling at early stage of the game , which kind of balance the whole game. The other thing is that if somebody dies it doesn't necessary mean he/she is a looser. The fact that some idiot such as; orca or others who will use acorn bombs or dog to rush kill players and complain about zombies is ridiculous.

Zombies are usually not threat to players who make base with walls and defences , they are only threat to those players like orca ,Ruoska and others, mainly because you split bases and start teamkilling players. However each strategy has some weaknesses and your weakness is zombie, but that might not be the case for other players. I personally don't like zombies because I am using same strategy as above players but just saying other players have different strategies so why ruin their game for sake of few?

To orca's argument; check noob's guide to play ww I am sure it's on the forum somewhere.
If somebody is high level villager it is unwise to kill them, if you don't have required defence to handle zombie lvl 15-17-25. So why did you kill that guy if it doesn't make any strategic sense? As a Werewolf you should start with animal and moving on killing people, but starting with noobs otherwise they will logically track you down. I don't think removing zombies should be conclusion as it could really boost players who plays a lot against players who are learning to play.
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby dudlan66 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:45 am

dudlan66 wrote:I believe that the reason there are zombies is to prevent teamkilling at early stage of the game , which kind of balance the whole game. The other thing is that if somebody dies it doesn't necessary mean he/she is a looser. The fact that some idiot such as; orca or others who will use acorn bombs or dog to rush kill players and complain about zombies is ridiculous.

Zombies are usually not threat to players who make base with walls and defences , they are only threat to those players like orca ,Ruoska and others, mainly because you split bases and start teamkilling players. However each strategy has some weaknesses and your weakness is zombie, but that might not be the case for other players. I personally don't like zombies because I am using same strategy as above players but just saying other players have different strategies so why ruin their game for sake of few?

To orca's argument; check noob's guide to play ww I am sure it's on the forum somewhere.
If somebody is high level villager it is unwise to kill them, if you don't have required defence to handle zombie lvl 15-17-25. So why did you kill that guy if it doesn't make any strategic sense? As a Werewolf you should start with animal and moving on killing people, but starting with noobs otherwise they will logically track you down. I don't think removing zombies should be the conclusion in here, as it could really boost players who plays a lot against players who are learning to play.
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Ruoska
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby Ruoska » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:21 pm

dudlan66 wrote:I believe that the reason there are zombies is to prevent teamkilling at early stage of the game , which kind of balance the whole game. The other thing is that if somebody dies it doesn't necessary mean he/she is a looser.

I give you an example, once I had to kill last villager as ww, the villager was pretty poor had about 12 soldiers? with walls + net, the problem was that I could not do anything about him because he had 3 zombies protecting his base, like wolf I had lvl 9-10 far as I remember, quite strongly but could do nothing as I received net +stun+stun+stun...just useless, you die, you lose, you're out, It's very simple

dudlan66 wrote:The fact that some idiot such as; orca or others who will use acorn bombs or dog to rush kill players and complain about zombies is ridiculous.

This is part of the strategy, everyone can use acorns or dogs, that does not mean you're idiot/stupid/asshole/tk :lol: either way you can survive without shield for whole game and is not necessary to mine

dudlan66 wrote:Zombies are usually not threat to players who make base with walls and defences , they are only threat to those players like orca ,Ruoska and others, mainly because you split bases and start teamkilling players. However each strategy has some weaknesses and your weakness is zombie, but that might not be the case for other players. I personally don't like zombies because I am using same strategy as above players but just saying other players have different strategies so why ruin their game for sake of few?

I can go to the waterfall and build 16 towers and staying there the whole game , what is the point to have fun in this game ?

I don't see what is the point to be zm, but to be honest with you I do not care with or without them, that was just my opinion :idea:
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dudlan66
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby dudlan66 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:16 pm

Ruoska wrote:
dudlan66 wrote:I believe that the reason there are zombies is to prevent teamkilling at early stage of the game , which kind of balance the whole game. The other thing is that if somebody dies it doesn't necessary mean he/she is a looser.

I give you an example, once I had to kill last villager as ww, the villager was pretty poor had about 12 soldiers? with walls + net, the problem was that I could not do anything about him because he had 3 zombies protecting his base, like wolf I had lvl 9-10 far as I remember, quite strongly but could do nothing as I received net +stun+stun+stun...just useless, you die, you lose, you're out, It's very simple

Ok when he had only 12 soldiers and 3 zombies with stun waiting behind walls then you should of built an army army and attack after wall was breached. This would boost your levels but also let you win. Most useful units with ww are range units so I would recommend combination of them and foots to breach a wall.

dudlan66 wrote:The fact that some idiot such as; orca or others who will use acorn bombs or dog to rush kill players and complain about zombies is ridiculous.

This is part of the strategy, everyone can use acorns or dogs, that does not mean you're idiot/stupid/asshole/tk :lol: either way you can survive without shield for whole game and is not necessary to mine
I don't find it as strategy when you rush kill somebody , and there is no way to defend against it,I would then argue that zombies are counter strategy to this.



dudlan66 wrote:Zombies are usually not threat to players who make base with walls and defences , they are only threat to those players like orca ,Ruoska and others, mainly because you split bases and start teamkilling players. However each strategy has some weaknesses and your weakness is zombie, but that might not be the case for other players. I personally don't like zombies because I am using same strategy as above players but just saying other players have different strategies so why ruin their game for sake of few?

I can go to the waterfall and build 16 towers and staying there the whole game , what is the point to have fun in this game ?
Having 16 towers at waterfall doesn't make your base invincible , in fact it can make you more vulnerable as there no escape


I don't see what is the point to be zm, but to be honest with you I do not care with or without them, that was just my opinion :idea:
[/quote]

Fair enough I expressed mines too, If you wanna delete zombies then delete all early rush killing methods like dog and acorn bombs so then everyone can enjoy this game
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OrcinusOrca
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby OrcinusOrca » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:08 am

I killed WW players bunch of times with zombie and I think they are unfair. If someone is farmer and you come to him with lvl 13 zombie he is screwed. Zombies are unfair especially if someone could see your transformation at first night. than they can hunt you for revenge and you can not get rid of them.
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby Pwnage » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:04 pm

dudlan66 wrote:Fair enough I expressed mines too, If you wanna delete zombies then delete all early rush killing methods like dog and acorn bombs so then everyone can enjoy this game

Just to reiterate on the changes that will be implemented into the next version:
  • Dogs damage will scale (most likely by days/nights they survive)
  • Acorn bombs will be removed during testing
  • Fish Net will be harder to get, will not stun but snare the opponent for 4 seconds, 30 sec cooldown
  • Magic Immunity will be removed
  • Whether or not zombies may exist in the game will be determined by vote at the beginning.
However, I would like to iterate that even if you are the werewolf and you attack a base that has Fish Net + 3 zombies defending it, there is no reason to assume zombies are the problem. Killing haunted corpses is easy, and you should be attacking bases with a human army late in the game if you're serious about winning; have them focus the corpses. Killing zombies provides massive (perhaps too much) experience, which harms the villagers if an ally is stupid. If anything, this is the crux of the zombies since they can massively overfeed the wolf. Please keep in mind that through the many games that have occurred in 1.27.01, we can confidently assume that the problem with this version is not the strength of the Werewolf or the nuisance of zombies, but the absolute dominance fish net and magic immunity have on the game.
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Stormblessed
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Re: My balance sugestions

Postby Stormblessed » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:04 pm

lol, if 3 zombies are banging werewolf with hunted corpses he gets perma stun and can't even move an inch

hell if TWO zombies are doing it and placed hunted corpses handily he won't be able to move due to perma stun

Maybe just remove hunted corpse, zombies are strong anyways. Hunted Corpse ability makes them turn werewolf into pulp eventually ;3