UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Discuss Werewolf - Transylvania strategy, map and more.
Dranx
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:11 pm

UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Dranx » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:14 pm

YESTERDAY AT THIS GAME 2016-11-24 23-32 WEREWOLF TRANS +2 (102m15s) 6 players
admin player called pwnage droped me cause i was helping my friend Byzantios with no excuse!
So this is the politics that your admins folow when they are loosing???
User avatar
ITDude
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 12:00 am
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby ITDude » Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:52 pm

Dranx wrote:i was helping my friend Byzantios

I wonder why would the guy ranked 2 need help :?:
Dranx
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Dranx » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:21 pm

Cause maybe pwnage is good player too?
User avatar
Pwnage
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Pwnage » Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:36 pm

To clarify, I wanted to kick you for the entire time when I was playing the game, and only kick after I had already lost in order to make things less.. Corrupt?

This fortunately opens up a beautiful window for me to discuss the only facet of Werewolf Trans I dislike (due to vagueness): The Zombies.

For a short answer, Dranx, I apologize. I am a human being and I get agitated. I'm not an exemplary human, so I will (on rare occasion) act out on my frustration, using any power I have. This is not representative of the community as a whole, nor myself in most situations, and I'm sorry you were victim of my senseless, pity revenge. Truly, I apologize.

Moving onto an aforementioned point, zombies have always had a weird place in WWT. From the annoying shade which would keep up with the werewolf to reveal it during the day (something I was very eager to change by decreasing shade speed), to the silly small fences you can build when you acquire an adolescent male, the zombie class has been more of an Easter egg and an allowance to defeated players than anything. Certainly, the zombie may have a useful strategic place. With their high HP and damage along with a medium-distance stun, the ability to acquire units and siege armies with wisps, they have the ability to change the tides of battles, particularly in groups. However, one thing that remains undefined is their goal within the game.

Clearly by now we have all witnessed the inevitable gray zone extant within WWT. When you're playing, do you treat your fellow villagers as allies, working together to defeat a common enemy? Do you go Rambo and murder all in your path on your quest to exterminate the wolf? One thing is clear: you must kill the werewolf in order to win (or everyone else if you are the wolf), but this becomes undefined when you are a zombie. You are no longer a villager, so you can't win, but you're also not the werewolf so you can't win. As it is currently mechanically set out, your existence as a zombie is merely a statistic, something you are flagged as, but your contribution to the game is merely a nuisance; you are, for all intents and purposes, (statistically) useless as a zombie.

However, there is currently a chance for us to change this. With Falanor's unprecedented assistance, we now have a dedicate bot which collects player wins/losses depending on if they're villager, or werewolf. It also tracks if they're zombies, but we've programmed no ability to detect whether one wins or loses, as this is unclear. In the next patch, I intend to add a plethora of statistics both for balancing the game more empirically, but also to improve the current ranking/rating system implemented by Falanor.

So, community, I turn to you for this: How should we treat the zombie class? How can a zombie win? Can a zombie lose further? What penalties to a user's ranking should being a zombie incur? For instance, assuming a player who is a zombie has already lost as a villager, should they still fight as a zombie to kill the werewolf in order to lose less of a rating? Should they kill the villagers to lose less of a rating, or even gain a rating? This is relatively virgin territory, so any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

And again, to Dranx and the community at large, I apologize for my abuse of privilege.

Great games, and the best of luck to all,
Pwnage.
Pwnage.@USEast
User avatar
Tonex
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:00 am
Location: California Bay Area

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Tonex » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:08 am

Zombies (or hero units in general, including clockwork villagers) should definitely grant less exp. From what i remember, if a zombie teams up with the WW, the WW can easily farm exp since the zombie revives nearly instantly and can tell the WW the WW its location.
User avatar
Pwnage
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Pwnage » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:19 pm

Tonex wrote:Zombies (or hero units in general, including clockwork villagers) should definitely grant less exp. From what i remember, if a zombie teams up with the WW, the WW can easily farm exp since the zombie revives nearly instantly and can tell the WW the WW its location.


This is a very relevant point, but I'm discussing ranking experience as gained by playing on FBot. The goal is to adapt the current experience gaining scale into an Elo/Glick-based rating system
Pwnage.@USEast
Naufon
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:46 am

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Naufon » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:13 am

If a player dies to another player, you could make the new objective goal of the new zombie player to kill the player who killed him in order to win. It would only make sense that the spirit/zombie can't move on to the afterlife until they are at peace or got their revenge.

Not sure about if you get killed by an NPC of what your objective would be.
User avatar
Pwnage
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Pwnage » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:08 am

Naufon wrote:If a player dies to another player, you could make the new objective goal of the new zombie player to kill the player who killed him in order to win. It would only make sense that the spirit/zombie can't move on to the afterlife until they are at peace or got their revenge.

Not sure about if you get killed by an NPC of what your objective would be.


That's a pretty good suggestion! I'd argue that if you die to an NPC you probably deserve a loss and no redemption of rating :P
Pwnage.@USEast
User avatar
Tonex
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:00 am
Location: California Bay Area

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Tonex » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:20 am

Pwnage wrote:
Tonex wrote:Zombies (or hero units in general, including clockwork villagers) should definitely grant less exp. From what i remember, if a zombie teams up with the WW, the WW can easily farm exp since the zombie revives nearly instantly and can tell the WW the WW its location.


This is a very relevant point, but I'm discussing ranking experience as gained by playing on FBot. The goal is to adapt the current experience gaining scale into an Elo/Glick-based rating system


I thought you were talking about in-game design decisions about zombies? Hero units (including zombies) granting too much exp is a design issue, not a ranking/rating issue...?
User avatar
Pwnage
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Pwnage » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:09 pm

Correct, that is a design issue, but not what half of my inquiry was about, which is ranking and rating in the metagame as currently dictated by FBot (http://falanor.dlinkddns.com:83/players.php).

The game itself has various design flaws, few of which have to do with the zombie class. Currently, if a level 25 zombie is dying to the werewolf constantly, that would actually be healthier for the game since hopefully it would give the werewolf an edge to win a game, which does not happen very often.
Pwnage.@USEast
User avatar
Jesse James
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:00 am
Location: The Frozen Tundra of Siberia
Contact:

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Jesse James » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:37 pm

A few thoughts on zombies:
  • The objective of a survival game is to survive. If your villager is killed you have lost.
  • The zombie unit was intended to give those who have been defeated something to do if they want to stick around to the end of the game. It was never intended to be a reward or a second chance. However, the zombie unit does have some ability to influence the outcome of the game.
  • Building alliances is an important part of the game. Recruiting zombies to defend you, or help you destroy another player is encouraged as WWT can be a very political strategy game. A clever person can persuade or trick another player into doing their dirty work. (Ex. You change your name and color and transform into werewolf in front of a player, tricking the viewing player into "ousting" the victim of your charade).
  • Zombies have mechanisms in place to make them scale in disruptive power as the game progresses so that neither werewolves or villagers can be severely crippled by the presence of zombies until the game should be coming to a conclusion. They require feeding on corpses until they are high enough level to sustain their life without feeding.
  • In Werewolf Advanced (A inspiring source for WWT) a defeated player would simply spawn a mausoleum that would spawn an AI controlled banshee and periodically spawn zombies. A nuisance to other players but often not a game changing event.
  • It has been suggested that a zombie could be given a second chance at being a villager by performing a task (such as killing another villager for their "essence"). This would create purpose but skew their aggression against villagers.
User avatar
ITDude
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 12:00 am
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby ITDude » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:49 am

Jesse James wrote:
Building alliances is an important part of the game. Recruiting zombies to defend you, or help you destroy another player is encouraged as WWT can be a very political strategy game.


Fishing net last 12 secs and can be recasted really soon. Werewolf with lvl 25 already has a though time facing an army, let alone if it's baseless it has no chance vs a team of net + a zombie.

Jesse James wrote:It has been suggested that a zombie could be given a second chance at being a villager by performing a task (such as killing another villager for their "essence"). This would create purpose but skew their aggression against villagers.


Zombies are the ones that lost... Most players leave once they are zombie, making it for werewolf harder to level. Adding a mechanism to encourage zombies to kill a villager to return to play encourages them to remain in game as well as making risky an alliance with a zombie. It also forces zombies that stay to hunt the werewolf since he's also a villager.
User avatar
Tonex
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:00 am
Location: California Bay Area

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Tonex » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:12 am

Hmm, how about the zombies can regain a small portion of lost rating points by killing both villagers and the WW (taking the points from who they kill)? Zombies wouldn't be forced into a specific goal, and would still have a solid reason to keep playing. Maybe balance the rating points around the kill bonuses breaking even with the original death penalty if the zombie is able to kill all but one villager and the WW (the WW also giving more points than individual villagers).
User avatar
Pwnage
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:00 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby Pwnage » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:08 pm

ITDude wrote:Fishing net last 12 secs and can be recasted really soon. Werewolf with lvl 25 already has a though time facing an army, let alone if it's baseless it has no chance vs a team of net + a zombie.

This is being addressed for upcoming releases, consider this problem tentatively resolved and not means for a discussion of the zombie class.
Tonex wrote:Hmm, how about the zombies can regain a small portion of lost rating points by killing both villagers and the WW (taking the points from who they kill)? Zombies wouldn't be forced into a specific goal, and would still have a solid reason to keep playing.

Not a bad suggestion, partial rating recuperation for killing either side could be a straight forward solution, and allows the zombies to still be ambiguous threats.
Pwnage.@USEast
User avatar
kanzer
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:18 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: UNFAIR DROP BY ADMIN

Postby kanzer » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:00 am

The Zombie is a grain in the ass for the Werewolf, in addition to being the total doom of those low level humans who are alone.

IS THE FEAR.
__________________________JUGADORES QUE HABLEN ESPAÑOL PUEDEN CONTACTARSE CONMIGO



_________________________________________________Image________________________